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	<title>Comments on: The Wikipedia Paradox</title>
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	<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/</link>
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		<title>By: Itai</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-30980</link>
		<dc:creator>Itai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-30980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cute.
but....
Even If all this was true - after a few iterations - surely quickly enough - the next article about a subject because it is the next least interesting will be far less interesting then some of the other dropped articles and will stop adding (possibly reduce) interest in that subject.

Even if the above is false and the logic of your argument was perfect - this still couldn&#039;t hold since wikipedia is a noisy system...
Wikipedia entries have some noise in them for many reasons (e.g. outdated information, inaccuracies, marketing professionals,r deliberate sabotage etc.).
There are mechanisms aimed at reducing the magnitude of this noise - moderation is one but the more significant (I think) force is that the whole of internet is allowed to correct (and insert) the errors/inaccuracies.
Adding lots of entries will greatly reduce the reader/entry ratio of wikipedia - thus reducing the potential for error correction and increasing the noise in the system - possibly eventually rendering it useless.
There are a few additional interesting factors but I have a limited attention span and have to wrap up - so my final point is:
consider pi (you know 3.141592653589... with the circles and all).
If articles ARE of diminishing interest - in this illustration diminishing magnitude of least significant digit of pi - then for each purpose the relevant accuracy is limited and for basic research, every-day purpose and curiosity - 3.14159 is probably quite enough and you don&#039;t have to go any further... it&#039;ll only make everything cumbersome.

&lt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cute.<br />
but&#8230;.<br />
Even If all this was true &#8211; after a few iterations &#8211; surely quickly enough &#8211; the next article about a subject because it is the next least interesting will be far less interesting then some of the other dropped articles and will stop adding (possibly reduce) interest in that subject.</p>
<p>Even if the above is false and the logic of your argument was perfect &#8211; this still couldn&#8217;t hold since wikipedia is a noisy system&#8230;<br />
Wikipedia entries have some noise in them for many reasons (e.g. outdated information, inaccuracies, marketing professionals,r deliberate sabotage etc.).<br />
There are mechanisms aimed at reducing the magnitude of this noise &#8211; moderation is one but the more significant (I think) force is that the whole of internet is allowed to correct (and insert) the errors/inaccuracies.<br />
Adding lots of entries will greatly reduce the reader/entry ratio of wikipedia &#8211; thus reducing the potential for error correction and increasing the noise in the system &#8211; possibly eventually rendering it useless.<br />
There are a few additional interesting factors but I have a limited attention span and have to wrap up &#8211; so my final point is:<br />
consider pi (you know 3.141592653589&#8230; with the circles and all).<br />
If articles ARE of diminishing interest &#8211; in this illustration diminishing magnitude of least significant digit of pi &#8211; then for each purpose the relevant accuracy is limited and for basic research, every-day purpose and curiosity &#8211; 3.14159 is probably quite enough and you don&#8217;t have to go any further&#8230; it&#8217;ll only make everything cumbersome.</p>
<p>&lt;</p>
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		<title>By: FT2</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26558</link>
		<dc:creator>FT2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The paradox breaks down because unlike numbers, notability has a non-zero cost. Here&#039;s how:

Suppose X is the most notable non-notable topic (assuming we can designate one non-notable topic as such)

Is X notable merely by being such? No - because to be notable, it isn&#039;t enough to merely have a given property. It is necessary to have obtained attention from the world (&quot;be deemed worthy of notice&quot;) for having that property. And to have that evidenced by being written about substantively, in &quot;reliable sources&quot;.

So just having the property isn&#039;t enough. On to the fallback case &quot;...suppose I went to great trouble to convene a conference series on The Answer, was able to convince leading logicians and philosophers to take part, writing papers about The Answer, convinced a prestigious journal to publish the proceedings, arranged media coverage, and so on. The Answer would then certainly have exceeded Wikipedia’s notability guidelines...&quot;

The problem here is, yes you could. But not for each and every topic, because there is a practical limit to conference calling, publicity generation, and interest the world is likely to pay, and ultimately time people and resources, that will limit your ability. Eventually and probably fairly quickly, you will find yourself hitting topics that are &quot;the most notable non-notable&quot; for which you will_not_ have been able to obtain world attention.

It all comes down to the fact that, unlike numbers, notability depends upon attention paid to a property, not merely having the property alone... and attention is limited and hard to obtain.

QED.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The paradox breaks down because unlike numbers, notability has a non-zero cost. Here&#8217;s how:</p>
<p>Suppose X is the most notable non-notable topic (assuming we can designate one non-notable topic as such)</p>
<p>Is X notable merely by being such? No &#8211; because to be notable, it isn&#8217;t enough to merely have a given property. It is necessary to have obtained attention from the world (&#8220;be deemed worthy of notice&#8221;) for having that property. And to have that evidenced by being written about substantively, in &#8220;reliable sources&#8221;.</p>
<p>So just having the property isn&#8217;t enough. On to the fallback case &#8220;&#8230;suppose I went to great trouble to convene a conference series on The Answer, was able to convince leading logicians and philosophers to take part, writing papers about The Answer, convinced a prestigious journal to publish the proceedings, arranged media coverage, and so on. The Answer would then certainly have exceeded Wikipedia’s notability guidelines&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem here is, yes you could. But not for each and every topic, because there is a practical limit to conference calling, publicity generation, and interest the world is likely to pay, and ultimately time people and resources, that will limit your ability. Eventually and probably fairly quickly, you will find yourself hitting topics that are &#8220;the most notable non-notable&#8221; for which you will_not_ have been able to obtain world attention.</p>
<p>It all comes down to the fact that, unlike numbers, notability depends upon attention paid to a property, not merely having the property alone&#8230; and attention is limited and hard to obtain.</p>
<p>QED.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Bahls</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26548</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Bahls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello Mr Nielsen,

my name is Christian Bahls, i am member of MOGiS e.V.
The deletion of the MOGiS Article in the german wikipedia
lead to the discussion about relevancy in Germany.

By accident i have to admit that i am also Mathmatician
And i have to admit i loughed my head off :)

And you know what ..
.. we are actually doing the induction step of your proof :)
http://news.google.com/news?q=mogis%20wikipedia%20-mike
http://www.google.com/search?hl=de&amp;q=mogis+wikipedia+-mike&amp;btnG=Suche&amp;lr=&amp;aq=f&amp;oq=
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Hei_ber/Mogis

yours
 Christian Bahls]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Mr Nielsen,</p>
<p>my name is Christian Bahls, i am member of MOGiS e.V.<br />
The deletion of the MOGiS Article in the german wikipedia<br />
lead to the discussion about relevancy in Germany.</p>
<p>By accident i have to admit that i am also Mathmatician<br />
And i have to admit i loughed my head off <img src='http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And you know what ..<br />
.. we are actually doing the induction step of your proof <img src='http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
<a href="http://news.google.com/news?q=mogis%20wikipedia%20-mike" rel="nofollow">http://news.google.com/news?q=mogis%20wikipedia%20-mike</a><br />
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=de&#038;q=mogis+wikipedia+-mike&#038;btnG=Suche&#038;lr=&#038;aq=f&#038;oq=" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?hl=de&#038;q=mogis+wikipedia+-mike&#038;btnG=Suche&#038;lr=&#038;aq=f&#038;oq=</a><br />
<a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Hei_ber/Mogis" rel="nofollow">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Hei_ber/Mogis</a></p>
<p>yours<br />
 Christian Bahls</p>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26509</link>
		<dc:creator>gwern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s probably tedious to continue this post, but whatever.

&gt; Question 2: Is subject X notable merely by being The Answer?

Very clearly not. There is no self-referentiality in the notability guidelines, nothing to make this even close to being possibly &#039;yes&#039;.

&gt; But suppose I went to great trouble to convene a conference series on The Answer, was able to convince leading logicians and philosophers to take part, writing papers about The Answer, convinced a prestigious journal to publish the proceedings, arranged media coverage, and so on. The Answer would then certainly have exceeded Wikipedia’s notability guidelines, and thus the answer to Question 2 would be “yes”.

Another commenter points out an ambiguity in the wording - is the conference and all the coverage on the Answer or on the paradox? If the latter, then the Answer still has not notability. If the former, then nothing objectionable has happened and there is no paradox.

Let us imagine that the Answer is the very interesting podesta political system used in medieval Italy (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Podest%C3%A0). If you convene a conference, generate lots of new coverage, new research papers, etc. then why wouldn&#039;t WP cover podesta, especially if it was on the edge to begin with? I don&#039;t see any issue at all there. Every notable idea or historical event or person was non-notable at some point.

Someone might object, &#039;But this feels like &quot;gaming&quot; Wikipedia - cynically manipulating what it will and will not include - manufacturing Notability.&#039;

But you could manufacture notability just as well by going to your local public space and shooting 30 people to death, but no one seriously objects to articles on Cho or Hasan. Manufacturing notability is what happens as time moves on; as the expression goes, &#039;shit happens&#039;. (And besides, if you are devoting your resources to publicizing and researching one Answer, you are thereby not doing so all the other possible Answers.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably tedious to continue this post, but whatever.</p>
<p>&gt; Question 2: Is subject X notable merely by being The Answer?</p>
<p>Very clearly not. There is no self-referentiality in the notability guidelines, nothing to make this even close to being possibly &#8216;yes&#8217;.</p>
<p>&gt; But suppose I went to great trouble to convene a conference series on The Answer, was able to convince leading logicians and philosophers to take part, writing papers about The Answer, convinced a prestigious journal to publish the proceedings, arranged media coverage, and so on. The Answer would then certainly have exceeded Wikipedia’s notability guidelines, and thus the answer to Question 2 would be “yes”.</p>
<p>Another commenter points out an ambiguity in the wording &#8211; is the conference and all the coverage on the Answer or on the paradox? If the latter, then the Answer still has not notability. If the former, then nothing objectionable has happened and there is no paradox.</p>
<p>Let us imagine that the Answer is the very interesting podesta political system used in medieval Italy (<a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Podest%C3%A0" rel="nofollow">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Podest%C3%A0</a>). If you convene a conference, generate lots of new coverage, new research papers, etc. then why wouldn&#8217;t WP cover podesta, especially if it was on the edge to begin with? I don&#8217;t see any issue at all there. Every notable idea or historical event or person was non-notable at some point.</p>
<p>Someone might object, &#8216;But this feels like &#8220;gaming&#8221; Wikipedia &#8211; cynically manipulating what it will and will not include &#8211; manufacturing Notability.&#8217;</p>
<p>But you could manufacture notability just as well by going to your local public space and shooting 30 people to death, but no one seriously objects to articles on Cho or Hasan. Manufacturing notability is what happens as time moves on; as the expression goes, &#8216;shit happens&#8217;. (And besides, if you are devoting your resources to publicizing and researching one Answer, you are thereby not doing so all the other possible Answers.)</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Hellman</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26491</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Hellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think we really need to start &lt;i&gt;The Journal of UnnotableTopics &lt;/i&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we really need to start <i>The Journal of UnnotableTopics </i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Milo Gardner</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26464</link>
		<dc:creator>Milo Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Notability exists in mathematical layers as well.The historical threads that first built numeration, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, weights and measures,and higher mathematical topic are notable. The gold standard in math history is not provided by journals and modern paradigms concerning modern mathematics.

The ancient math history gold standard that qualified a topic as notable are the ancient texts that report one or more numeration, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, weights and measures or higher math foundation. Let the ancient texts speak for themselves, absent modern censors, or revisionists -  who which history had taken a different course.

For example, Archimedes creation of calculus was born outside of the modern view of the &#039;limit theorem&#039;. Archimedes calculus did not primarily use the method of exhaustion (though fragments of the modern idea are reported his his finding the area/volume of a section of a parabola). Dijksterus documents in &quot;Archimedes&#039;, that Heiberg showed in 1906 that Archimedes converted an 1/4 geometic (infinite) series  

A + A/4 + A/16 + A/64 + ... + A/rn + ...

(the modern method of exhaustion fragment)

to a (finite) Egyptian fraction series 

A + A/4 + A/12

as used from 4,000 BCE to 1454 AD (within Fibonacci&#039;s 1202 AD Liber Abaci - Europe&#039;s arithmetic book for 252 years)..

Milo Gardner]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notability exists in mathematical layers as well.The historical threads that first built numeration, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, weights and measures,and higher mathematical topic are notable. The gold standard in math history is not provided by journals and modern paradigms concerning modern mathematics.</p>
<p>The ancient math history gold standard that qualified a topic as notable are the ancient texts that report one or more numeration, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, weights and measures or higher math foundation. Let the ancient texts speak for themselves, absent modern censors, or revisionists &#8211;  who which history had taken a different course.</p>
<p>For example, Archimedes creation of calculus was born outside of the modern view of the &#8216;limit theorem&#8217;. Archimedes calculus did not primarily use the method of exhaustion (though fragments of the modern idea are reported his his finding the area/volume of a section of a parabola). Dijksterus documents in &#8220;Archimedes&#8217;, that Heiberg showed in 1906 that Archimedes converted an 1/4 geometic (infinite) series  </p>
<p>A + A/4 + A/16 + A/64 + &#8230; + A/rn + &#8230;</p>
<p>(the modern method of exhaustion fragment)</p>
<p>to a (finite) Egyptian fraction series </p>
<p>A + A/4 + A/12</p>
<p>as used from 4,000 BCE to 1454 AD (within Fibonacci&#8217;s 1202 AD Liber Abaci &#8211; Europe&#8217;s arithmetic book for 252 years)..</p>
<p>Milo Gardner</p>
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		<title>By: Milo Gardner</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26463</link>
		<dc:creator>Milo Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26463</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Notability exists on layers. For example, what and who is notable in Western US history? Given a yes answer to one subject, say gold minding, or the building of an economy in a well defined region of the west, based on gold or other forms of money or trade. a second level notability topic exists IFF it directly connects to the first layer in a meaningful manner. That is, no notable subjects independently exists, in a journal (as several threads have proposed), or in the real world. Real world, and the economic or social worth of a product, and the economic/social context of an individual providing meaningful leadership provided the gold standard, QED. Milo Gardner]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notability exists on layers. For example, what and who is notable in Western US history? Given a yes answer to one subject, say gold minding, or the building of an economy in a well defined region of the west, based on gold or other forms of money or trade. a second level notability topic exists IFF it directly connects to the first layer in a meaningful manner. That is, no notable subjects independently exists, in a journal (as several threads have proposed), or in the real world. Real world, and the economic or social worth of a product, and the economic/social context of an individual providing meaningful leadership provided the gold standard, QED. Milo Gardner</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Gleaves</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26451</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Gleaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t this a reworking of Bertrand Russell&#039;s barber paradox.  The example used in Logicomix (highly recommended graphic novel) is of a book which lists non-self-referential books - should it include itself thereby entering the paradox.

Similarly a Wikipedia page of subjects not covered by Wikipedia would negate itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this a reworking of Bertrand Russell&#8217;s barber paradox.  The example used in Logicomix (highly recommended graphic novel) is of a book which lists non-self-referential books &#8211; should it include itself thereby entering the paradox.</p>
<p>Similarly a Wikipedia page of subjects not covered by Wikipedia would negate itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Buena experiencia con wikipedia &#171; La verdad está ahí afuera</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26449</link>
		<dc:creator>Buena experiencia con wikipedia &#171; La verdad está ahí afuera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Una vez es cierto que intenté que se eliminara un página dedicada a una teoría desconocida sobre la inercia y sus aplicaciones en cosmología por irrelevante y confusa. Creo que votaron 5 personas y decidió mantenerse. Salí escamado, pero hoy leía una entrada interesante como divertimento argumental al respecto de cómo decidir qué es relevante y qué no lo es en wikipedia http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/ [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Una vez es cierto que intenté que se eliminara un página dedicada a una teoría desconocida sobre la inercia y sus aplicaciones en cosmología por irrelevante y confusa. Creo que votaron 5 personas y decidió mantenerse. Salí escamado, pero hoy leía una entrada interesante como divertimento argumental al respecto de cómo decidir qué es relevante y qué no lo es en wikipedia <a href="http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/" rel="nofollow">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey</title>
		<link>http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/comment-page-1/#comment-26445</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-wikipedia-paradox/#comment-26445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you abandon notability as your ordering scheme... then, sure, you can find some ordering that gives you a clearly-defined &quot;first member not in the set of notable articles&quot;. But there are infinitely many such orderings, with infinitely many answers - so what you&#039;ve really done here is to shift the problem from proving the notability of the &lt;i&gt;article&lt;/i&gt; to proving the notability of your chosen ordering scheme. I&#039;m not sure this really helps :-)

&lt;em&gt;[MN: I can just pick an arbitrary one - say, lexicographic - and go with it, and start promoting The Answer.  Whether or not the ordering was notable would be incidental to establishing the notability of The Answer.]&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you abandon notability as your ordering scheme&#8230; then, sure, you can find some ordering that gives you a clearly-defined &#8220;first member not in the set of notable articles&#8221;. But there are infinitely many such orderings, with infinitely many answers &#8211; so what you&#8217;ve really done here is to shift the problem from proving the notability of the <i>article</i> to proving the notability of your chosen ordering scheme. I&#8217;m not sure this really helps <img src='http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><em>[MN: I can just pick an arbitrary one - say, lexicographic - and go with it, and start promoting The Answer.  Whether or not the ordering was notable would be incidental to establishing the notability of The Answer.]</em></p>
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